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※ 引述《ext66 (暗夜)》之銘言：
: 真是夠了，政經剛剛又有來賓在打
: 「柯文哲在辯論會上拿出來的律師函是真是假、不給記者拍攝」等莫名其妙的問題
: 我說阿，所有的東西作者官網就有了，
: 也有當年柯文哲說的"作者之後會正式說明"
: (其實就是長版的律師函，媒體沒報只是因為事情很清楚沒爆點了吧？)
: 上節目之前做個功課有這麼難嗎？
: https://imgur.com/gallery/OaKtpH9
: 沒發現在作者官網哪裡的話，抓出來給你們看了。
: 來源：
: https://ethan-gutmann.com/ko-wen-je-interview/



先附個Gutmann回覆的影片連結

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-XUXdPNJW4

影片中不難看出Gutmann對柯的尊敬

還有對記者的行為感到不滿



我覺得影片比信件打臉更真實啦

情緒跟用字都假不了

最近要考托福

下面逐字稿+翻譯

(如果要後面Gutmann噴記者的逐字稿我過幾天再補)



超。懶人包：

2004當時中國整天在宣傳器官移植，
柯為了病人去中國看看情況，
結果意外發現有法輪功被迫害，
為了避免這種來路不明的器官，
他弄了一個表格讓中國醫生不能夠隱瞞器官來源，
Gutmann大為讚賞。




In my book, I did not describe Dr. Ko as an organ broker.I describe him
as a man of SINGULAR COURAGE. Dr. Ko basically admitted that
he had stumbled into something terrible in China. He was looking into
the quality of care for transplant patients. Elderly people in Taiwan who
wanted to get an organ, China is obviously a go-to place. To wait in Taiwan
on the list was a death sentence to for somebody who needed a new liver.

在我的書中，我並沒有描述柯醫師是器官仲介。
我描述他是一個有獨特非凡勇氣的人。
柯醫師基本上是坦承，他曾經在中國意外遇到一些可怕的事。
他當時正在研究移植病患的照護品質。


This is back in 2004, 2005. China is out there advertising prices,

advertising care. So at some point, he is in the Mainland and he goes to
a hospital and he talks to the doctors, and they go through some sort of
getting-to-know-you process ,and at the end of that process they say,
"well, look, we will give your patients from your clinic or whatever, we'll
give them a Chinese price, about half the foreigner price." But they also say
"we also understand your concerns about organ quality." He was looking out
for his patients or his clinic.

時間回到2004,2005。中國正在外面宣傳(器官移植)的價格和照護。
所以當時柯是有去中國，在一家醫院見了一些醫生，
經過一些互相認識的過程，在最後那些醫生說：
“我會給你們的病人中國價，差不多是外國人的半價。”
但他們也說，“我們也瞭解你對器官品質的要求。”

In China, you negotiate. Everybody negotiates. Politicians negotiate,
businessmen negotiate, doctors negotiate, my mother negotiates for the price
of a banana for about 5 minutes in a Beijing market.
And there's nothing hidden about that or surreptitious or even evil about it.
It is simply the way things of business is done in China.

在中國，大家都會討價還價。不管是政客，商人，醫生，甚至我老媽都會在北京的市場
為了一串香蕉討價還價5分鐘。這不是什麼隱晦或見不得人甚至是邪惡的事。這只是
中國人處理事情的方式。

What he was told though, was something he did not expect. Dr. Ko was basically
told "you don't have to worry about the quality of these organs because
they are Falun Gongs'.
These people they don't drink, they don't smoke, they practice very healthy
Chi-gong. Everybody knows the Falon Gong are arrested with no, often aren't
arrested at all. They just simply disappear. They were taken in. Everybody
knows they're being tortured. I mean, this is not a secret in Taiwan. This
was an appalling thing, a terrible thing that he walked into here.

但接下來他聽到的，卻是他沒料想到的事。
“你不用擔心器官的品質啦，這些都是法輪功的，
他們不喝酒不抽菸，還會練健康氣功。”
大家都知道法輪功會被逮補，不是，通常不會被逮補。他們只會消失。
他們被抓去，被虐待。這在台灣不是秘密。
但這一件駭人可怕的事，他還是剛好遇到了。

He did something about it. He created a form, an electronic form on his
computer and put a lot of work into this, which Chinese doctors would have to
use, which identify where every organ came from. He said, "this will only take
care of 95% of the problem." He wasn't referring to criminal being harvested,
he was referring to Falun Gong being harvested. He was basically saying this
would shame mainland doctors. This would give a sense of transparency to the
process. This would make them accountable.

對於這件事，柯做到了一件事。
他弄了一個表格，在他電腦上的電子表格。
他很用心的做了這件事，讓中國醫生必須去確認每個器官的來源。
柯說：“這只能解決95％的問題。”
他並不是說那些割出器官的犯人，而是那些法輪功的人。
他根本上是說，這樣(確認來源)會讓醫生羞愧。
這樣會讓流程更透明，讓這些醫生能夠負責。

There's no other reason that he created this for. In a sense, he was trying to
do what the transplantation society tried to do only over the last 2 years,
which was to bring accountability to the system, and he was trying to do this
alone. This is not a figment of our imagination and we both understood exactly
what we're talking about. I played with that form, I moved up and down and I
cursored around all over his computer. My researcher did too. I described him
as a man of singular courage because this was an act of courage and was a
profoundly dangerous act. In fact, he told me that he was banned from the
mainland.

他弄了這些表格，完全不為別的。
某種意義上，他那時候就已經在做器官移植社群在過去2年嘗試做的事，
(影片是2015)
也就是讓器官移植體系更可靠，而他是自己一個人嘗試去做。
這不是我們虛構的，而我們(作者與他的研究員)都知道我們在說什麼。
我曾經用過那表格，我也掃遍他的電腦。我的研究員也這麼做。
我描述他是一個有獨特非凡勇氣之人，
因為這是一件展現勇氣的事，也是一個格外危險的舉動。
事實上，柯告訴我他因此被中國封殺了。

Let's go to 2013. I'm getting closer with my book, and at one point, I wanted
to put out an article, and I wrote up a text of what I remembered of our
interview. It's called "a tale of two surgeons". I sent this text to my
researcher Lee Shy. Lee Shy added on a little note to Dr. Ko. "Under the
circumstances that we don't mentioned your name ,specific situations ,or any
details, is it okay to write this content?" That's number 1. Number 2, "Is
his draft of this story below, and it's below, according to reality? Is it
factual? Because of the time we didn't record and we didn't ask too much about
this direction, so there's some situations we're not too clear about. We just
remember the general drift. Could you take a look and tell us where the story
is inaccuracies. If it's incorrect, how should it be correctly stated?"

Dr. Ko's answer is right above it. "The story seems okay."

我們回到2013，我正在寫我的書，某時，我想要寫出這邊文章。
我寫了一整段關於我們(與柯)會談的篇幅，叫做"2位外科醫生的故事"。
我先將這篇文章傳給我的研究員，他加上了一些附註，寄給柯醫師。
“在不提到您的名字，特定的狀況，以及任何具體細節的情況下，
我們可以寫出這些內容嗎？”這是第一個附註問題。第二個，
“這些都是事實嗎？在當時我們沒有錄音也並沒有問到這方面，
所以有些狀況我們並不是太清楚，僅記得大略。
您可以告訴我們有什麼不正確嗎？如果有，那正確的是如何呢？”

柯醫師的回答就如同上面，“這故事看起來ok。”

I defy anyone to find significant differences in what's being published here.
Then in January, 2014. The request to identify Dr. Ko by his real name was
granted by Dr. Ko. Again, there's a long explanation. "We wanted to ask you
if you were willing to give us the permission to use your name when
mentioning the things you told us. In the past, we just referred to you as an
anonymous Taiwan doctor, but it is much more credible with the name. This will
help the evidence. You would be doing a great service. Maybe even help save
some people's lives." What is his answer?

"OK. For what I say, I can be responsible."

我不相信有人可以找到這跟書上說的不一樣啦。
2014年一月，請求標明柯醫師的本名，獲得柯醫師再次同意。
這邊有很長的解釋。
“我們想問您，是否可以允許我們在提到您的故事時，
使用您的本名？過去我們提到您時，適用匿名台灣醫師，
但如果用真名會更可信。這能幫助我們證明，對我們是很大的貢獻，
甚至可以拯救到一些人。”
柯醫師的回答呢？

”OK。 我說過的話我負責。“

We ask him for a headshot for the book, and "my best wishes to you", this is
Dr. Ko's response. Said the pictures for the book. Now any time in any of
these three responses, he could have come back and say, "just hang on a
minute." No, he did not. And actually, I don't think that speaks badly about
his character. I think that speaks well of his character. I think he's
actually a very honest man.

我們請他給我們一張大頭照拿來書上用，”祝你順利“，
(拿出照片)
這就是柯醫師的回應，說這是給書的照片。
其實在這3次回覆中，他大可以退縮掉然後說，”欸等一下等一下“，
但他沒有。
事實上，我不認為這是他代表個性差。
我認為，這代表他的好個性。
我認為他事實上是個非常誠實的人。



------------------------------打逐字稿打累了-------------------------

作者後面都在噴媒體有夠爛，
希望大家能真的去關注這個亂摘活人器官的問題。



--
問君能有幾多魯?
恰似一條魯蛇向東蠕
問君何能爾?
臉醜人自魯。



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